Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.misc
From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Subject: Re: newbie question: bike seats w/o butt pain?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:55:40 GMT

Ondrea Heather Delio writes:

> I've just purchased a mountain bike... nothing special, just for
> transportation purposes on my college campus.  Problem is... two
> hours worth of riding = 2+ hours excruciating pain in lower buttocks
> area.

Most of the regular bicyclists have been riding so long they don't
remember how it was to get adapted to sitting on such a small area and
one that usually is not stressed in that manner.  I was reminded of
this after recovery from an injury when I had beginners saddle
soreness once again for a couple of weeks of longer rides.

> Can anyone recommend a seat for an average-shaped woman that is
> conducive to a comfortable bike ride?  (an actual seat please, not
> the gel seat-covers).

Although Avocet pioneered "women's saddles", others make them also.
These saddles have their pressure points farther apart to accommodate
the wider female pelvic structure.  However, your problem may not
necessarily be related to spacing but rather to the lack of toughness
in the contact area.  Only practice can improve that.

The question often arises why saddles are made so narrow and
uncomfortable.  The reason is that if you make the saddle broad and
comfortable you'll be sitting on the muscles used for propulsion and
stops blood circulation, giving a horrendous charley horse.  Thus,
bicyclists sit on narrow saddles that support the pelvic bone where it
is not covered by muscle.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Specialized "Groin Saving" Saddle
Date: 31 Aug 1999 15:58:26 GMT

Casey Keller writes:

> I bought one of these a couple of weeks ago and, so far, I like it.
> It hits my right in the sit bones and just about nowhere else.

If you believe that, you'll believe most anything advertisers claim.
The only thing this saddle does is allow you to fart without unloading
your butt, the slot being behind the area where the purported problem
occurs... at the forward part (the nose) of the saddle.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Specialized "Groin Saving" Saddle
Date: 2 Sep 1999 17:39:01 GMT

Pete Cresswell writes:

>> Maybe the saddle is more for the relief of 'rhoids than for the
>> relief of your boys.

> It also prevents pressure on the prostate and urethra.  Totally
> irrelevant for 95% of the population, but a real nice feature for
> the other 5 percent.

The claim is that it solves ED (erectile dysfunction) based on a
spurious "study" of a population of bicyclists and swimmers in which
the bicyclists had a greater occurrence of ED.  The sample and had 13
occurrences, all of whom were in the over 50 age group, something that
was not revealed in the published data.  As it turns out, both
athletic groups in the sample had a lower incidence of ED than the
public at large.  Beyond that, bicyclists had a lower occurrence than
the swimmers when corrected for age, since this is a natural function
of aging that ultimately reaches all males.  The bicyclists were 10
years older than the swimmers who reported the deficiency.

The upshot is that ED is an expected syndrome with advanced age.  That
old folks have looked for an excuse to not ride bicycles is not new
and that ED has been put forth as a dire consequence of bicycling is
as old as the bicycle.  ED and related symptoms have been bandied
about in the oldest literature I have seen.  Not everyone has an
anatomy for sitting on a bicycle but that doesn't mean we should all
buy a prosthesis type saddle for a syndrome that doesn't affect us.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Specialized "Groin Saving" Saddle
Date: 2 Sep 1999 21:55:29 GMT

Todd Kuzma writes:

>> The claim is that it solves ED (erectile dysfunction) based on a
>> spurious "study" of a population of bicyclists and swimmers in
>> which the bicyclists had a greater occurrence of ED.

> I'm not sure of the study you are referring to, but after reading
> the literature from Specialized and talking to Dr. Minkow, I would
> say that Specialized's marketing thrust has nothing to do with ED.
> Rather, they claim that the saddle is simply more comfortable.

I am referring to the study by Dr. Minkow who got national press
coverage on his discovery that bicycling caused ED and that it was a
major problem for bicyclists.  It was this study that introduced the
Specialized saddle.  The press asked Avocet what their response to
this was, considering that Avocet had pioneered the variable thickness
saddle shell and women's saddles designed with the anatomical
differences of male and female pelvic spreads as models.  The
"study" was not available in the literature so no comment was possible.
After much digging, the embarrassing results came to light.  The study
in fact showed that bicyclists were less likely to suffer from ED than
others.  That is, if the data were age normalized and interpreted with
national averages as comparison.

> After selling a number of these saddles, talking to the users, and
> conferring with other dealers that have sold these saddles, I'd have
> to say that many folks DO consider this saddle to be more
> comfortable and that it does relieve numbness in men and women.

That doesn't sell many saddles.  What sold saddles was promises of
better sex life, or at least allusion to same.  Let's see what people
are riding in a couple of years.  Like the Tri-Spoke, this trend will
retreat into the history books where its identical predecessors are.

> Dr. Minkow did mention a study that was conducted over the past year
> that showed that women responded more positively to the saddle than
> men.

Oh how generous of him.  That was a tactical smoke screen for the
initial thrust of the promotion.  Why do we need Dr. Minkow to sell
slotted saddles that were around 80 years ago for the same reason they
are here now.  Now that the public awareness has been captured by
these saddles, the introductory publicity grabber can fold his tent.

> Obviously, their concern was not ED.

Obviously?  I see.  You are easily persuaded.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Specialized "Groin Saving" Saddle
Date: 3 Sep 1999 00:39:17 GMT

Todd Kuzma writes:

> Jobst, if you have some data that show this saddle is snake oil, I'm
> eager to hear it.

The identifying feature, the split, as I already mentioned, is back
far enough that it mainly facilitates passing gas without rising off
the saddle, an area where no substantial pressure rests on the saddle
anyway.  That is why one can ride on it without it interfering with
seating.  The area that could cause pressure so called areas of
interest along the urethra is the nose of the saddle that is
continuous and unaltered.  The difference in the models that I have
seen is that they have deep padding that initially feels comfortable,
but as is the case in bicycling, the deep cushion impedes circulation
around the pelvic bones and causes a charley horse in the long run.
That is why bicycle saddles used by most people who ride actively are
narrow and firm.

Besides, not long ago it was Flite, Flite, Flite, because it was so
light and without frills.  Now its deep cushioned and HEAVY.  I
suppose the pendulum must swing to keep sales moving.

How do you explain the disappearance of these saddles about 50 years
ago after they made a brief and exciting appearance.  Those who don't
study history are...

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Specialized "Groin Saving" Saddle
Date: 3 Sep 1999 17:51:14 GMT

Todd Kuzma writes:

>> The identifying feature, the split, as I already mentioned, is back
>> far enough that it mainly facilitates passing gas without rising
>> off the saddle, an area where no substantial pressure rests on the
>> saddle anyway.  That is why one can ride on it without it
>> interfering with seating.  The area that could cause pressure so
>> called areas of interest along the urethra is the nose of the
>> saddle that is continuous and unaltered.

> I measured two Body Geometry saddles that we have in stock.  In the
> BG Comp, the groove runs to within 1 cm of the tip of the saddle.
> In the BG Sport, it runs to within 7 cm of the tip of the saddle.
> According to Dr. Minkow, the BG Sport saddle is intended for hybrid
> and comfort bikes in which the rider is more upright.

The open split is only in the rear portion, the groove is in the
cushion that compresses and causes high pressure points at its edges
while collapsing to nearly full contact.  I'm not sure what a hybrid
or comfort bicycle is, but It seems this is aimed at the geriatric
community the way the tide is running.  First it was ED, now its
for oldsters.

> Dr. Minkow has been previously noted as an expert in ergonomics.  His
> claims have been verified in independent testing conducted by Dr. Robert
> Kessler, professor of urology, at the Stanford University Medical
> Center.  Dr. Kessler's tests showed conclusively that the saddle design
> is effective at preventing or reducing pain, numbness, and, yes,
> erectile dysfunction.

Oh pshaw!  I know what pursuing these test is.  I followed the search
for the first study (from Germany) that Minkow cited about ED.  It
turned out to be more a proof that ED was not a bicyclists concern
rather than that grooved or split saddles were appropriate.  If there
were a web site where this and other claimed studies could be perused,
none of this BS would get far.

> In the past, Jobst, you have criticized people who have attacked science
> with nothing more than conjecture, speculation, and myth.  This time the
> tables are turned.  Perhaps you can point to medical data of any sort
> that support your claim that the BG saddle design offers riders no
> additional comfort.

I beg your pardon.  The study on which this saddle was introduced was
statistical falsehood in its classically selective form.  You seem to
be well connected with the products proponents and should have access
to the data that supports the claims.  I have seen it and it is bogus.
The bicyclists who reported ED were over 50 years of age and ten years
older than the swimmers who also reported ED but with slightly fewer
occurrences.  Both athletically active groups had a lower incidence of
ED than the average male of the age group.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Specialized "Groin Saving" Saddle
Date: 3 Sep 1999 19:09:47 GMT

Todd Kuzma writes:

> Do you believe that all saddles provide exactly the same level of
> comfort to all riders?  If not, then why is it unreasonable to
> believe that this one could be better than others?

Because this saddle isn't new and the concept of depressed center
saddles with all sorts of recesses has been here before and gone the
way of linear pedal bicycles that come back from time to time.

> Don't get sidetracked by the ED bogey-man.  The issue is pain and
> numbness.  So far it's Specialized = 2 studies (1 independent) and
> Jobst = unsubstantiated criticisms.

Numbness IS "ED" if it persists and if it doesn't it doesn't matter.
What you are side stepping is that this saddle was introduced to the
press as a solution to male sexual discomfort including ED.  That this
is being downplayed now doesn't hold water.  Penile numbness is the
issue.  I don't believe we'll see these saddles in the long term
because they are as effective today as they were the last time they
showed up and vanished.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Specialized "Groin Saving" Saddle
Date: 3 Sep 1999 20:53:43 GMT

Brian Clownie writes:

> Jobst said "The identifying feature, the split, as I already
> mentioned, is back far enough that it mainly facilitates passing gas
> without rising off the saddle, an area where no substantial pressure
> rests on the saddle anyway."

You'd think that after all these years of people riding bicycles for
transportation, recreation and competition over long distances and
durations that stagger the mind, someone would have noticed this
before now.

> I am a physician biker, not involved financially here.  I use the
> Terry Liberator Pro saddle and like it a lot (not everyone does, and
> I had no "problem" before).  The Terry also has a groove in the
> rear, and then a frank hole under the penis (there, I said it).

What sort of physician are you that you have difficulty writing
"penis" and how does your profession qualify your to evaluate the
shape of this saddle more so than people who ride many miles?

> The rear groove is meant to keep pressure off the prostate (that's
> where it is Jobst, right in front of the air hole).  The penis
> begins way back there and is potentially vulnerable all along until
> it is pulled skyward by good biking shorts.

I think you should look at an anatomy book and see if you can find
the prostate and discover how the urethra fits into the sitting area.

> I have urologist biker buddies who are troubled by prostatitis and
> they say the groove is a good thing and in the right place.

That's interesting, that's an unusual location for the prostate.  If
your friend does prostate examinations, he knows that the prostate is
inside the pelvic cavity, not on the underside where you sit.  I
suppose that if you have a large fatty buttocks, some of the cellulite
could be pressed up inside and cause pressure on this protected gland.

Again, what sort of physician?

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.misc
Subject: Re: Bike seat-help!!!
Date: 10 Dec 1999 01:24:02 GMT

B. Saunders writes:

> I was wondering if someone could refer a bike seat that is very
> soft. I have a Specialized-brand bike and the seat is very hard.
> What is the softest seat out there???

You may have already heard something like this but I think it bears
repeating.  Bicycle seats are much harder than you might expect because
they bear on a small area, primarily the protuberances of the pelvic
bone that you can feel as solid bumps if you feel under your buttocks
as you sit in a chair.

If you sit on a larger area, for instance, with a soft cushion, you
will be sitting on muscles that propel your bicycle.  This may be
comfortable sitting still but pedaling, it causes a "charley horse" in
that muscle.  If you plan on riding more than a few hundred yards at
any time, you won't want to do this, because it is painful in the long
run.  The useful method is to ride the harder saddle long enough
repeatedly until you seating is no longer sensitive to the pressure.
All bicyclists who ride any distance achieve this condition, albeit
with various saddles, but all of these are not deep cushioned saddles
that the newcomer wished he had.

Even an experienced rider who is laid up or otherwise cannot ride for
a month or more, experiences much the same thing you are experiencing,
when he returns to riding the saddle that he never gave a thought
previously.  The big cushioned saddles are made for people who don't
ride bicycles.  That is why there are so few of them available, and
mostly not in bicycle shops where the regulars shop.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>