From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Slick road tires?
Date: 1 Apr 2001 03:08:18 GMT

Mitch Haley writes:

> Where have all the "real" road bike tires gone?  I've decided not to
> buy any tires which include "features" which do some harm (however
> slight) and no good, but it's getting hard to find tires without
> them.

> How many currently available tires meet these simple requirements?

> 1. Fit 700c (622mm) or 27" (630mm) rims (no prejudice here, just
>    that I have substantial investments in rims and frames that I
>    don't wish to replace)
> 2. Smooth, patternless tread (pure slicks).
> 3. Carbon black tread compound. (no silica or foo-foo dust)
> 4. No silly "puncture resistant" extra layers in the casing, unless
>    it can be shown that they repel sharp objects better than steel
>    wool repels needles.

Well you can thank your $.com folks, who love to buy doodads at any
price.  Their buying has driven many useful products from the market,
like regular spoked wheels with round steel spokes that any bicycle
shop can fix and that one can build at home.  From here on in, it
seems, we will be subjected to colored tires that cost more than twice
as much and wear out twice as fast with piss poor wet traction,
titanium everything, with carbon fiber and Kevlar, and frames with so
little clearance that leaves get stuck in the fork crown and rear
brake bridge when the ground is moist.  Neat-o, I gotta have it.  Of
course we don't ride much to make up for it, but who cares, ownership
is the name of the game.

> I've seen Avocet FasGrip K20 in some of the catalogs I get in the mail,
> but not the plain FasGrip 20 and 30 without the extra belting.
> Everything else seems to violate #2 and/or #3,
> except for Specialized Fat Boy, which violates #1.

You can mail order Avocet Road 20's from various catalogs (and Harris
Cyclery).  I stocked up on them because Avocet has decided to bow to
demand and change to black sidewalls in the future, the most common
complaint against the FasGrip tires.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Slick road tires?
Date: 2 Apr 2001 18:43:24 GMT

Chris Z? writes:

> Black side walls have a layer of tread rubber over the sidewalls which
> reduce the flexibility of the tire. This results in less responsiveness
> to the tire and a "dead" feel to the ride.

Not so.  The sidewalls will be unchanges except for black dye.

> "Skinwall" tires leave the black tread rubber off the sidewalls, using a
> more resilient latex (or latex like) coating over the tire cords. This
> allows the tire to flex more.

The sidewalls are not coated with latex anyway.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Slick road tires?
Date: 2 Apr 2001 20:23:30 GMT

Alex Wetmore writes:

>>> Black side walls have a layer of tread rubber over the sidewalls
>>> which reduce the flexibility of the tire. This results in less
>>> responsiveness to the tire and a "dead" feel to the ride.

>> Not so.  The sidewalls will be unchanged except for black dye.

> Who cares then?  The water and brake pad mixture that results from
> riding in the rain is also such a black dye, and my Avocet tires get
> dyed from it after a few hundred miles.  At least with black dyed
> sidewalls my tires will look dirty out of the box.

As I mentioned, I can find sidewall damage easier with natural colored
casings if they are light in color, what they usually are considering
that the cords are nearly white.

> I've read your ride reports Jobst, and expect that you ride a fair
> amount in the rain as well.  I know that we use the same rims and
> brake pads.  This isn't an issue on your bikes?

In the stack of worn out and damaged tires I collected for Avocet,
you'll find they have nearly their original color because I clean them
to inspect them for casing damage.  At the same time I clean the rim
using a fine stiff nylon brush and liquid detergent.  Black sidewalls
obscure some of that information.  Intrusion of aluminum sludge from
braking also highlights casing flaws in a light colored bare sidewall.

I don't expect riders to defend their preference for black tires.  In
contrast, I have practical reasons for liking yellow sidewalls, which
I developed while repairing tubulars where this effect is even greater.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Tire question..
Date: 17 Apr 2001 23:58:53 GMT

Jerry Gardner writes:

>> I can recommend the Avocet Road 20 as the best all around road tire.

> I don't see this tire on the Avocet web site. Do you mean the
> Fasgrip or the Multigrip?

http://www.avocet.com/tirepages/tirespecs.html#anchorcity

All that other jive doesn't define the tire and I find the "FasGrip"
name too corny.   You'll find the Road 20 on this page.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Avocet Carbon 12?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <Fv7s8.14260$44.89300@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 02:45:57 GMT

bfd writes anonymously:

>> The point of mentioning carbon 12 is that most tires cannot make
>> that claim.  Silica may have a place in tire treads but carbon 12
>> even more so.  When racing cars and motorcycles start using colored
>> tires, I'll reconsider the choice.

> So which tire is the "old" Avocet Fasgrip 30 folding road tire,
> 700x28, the Avocet Fasgrip SL 700x25 or Fasgrip SL K, 700x25?

http://www.avocet.com/tirepages/carbon12_specs.html

I think the web page makes that clear.  The difference is not in the
names and size of the tires but that what was formerly called a 28mm
tire has always been a 25mm tire and is no labeled as such.  When
these tires were introduced, there were several nominal 28mm tires
that were actually 25mm.  In order to identify them, the same notation
was used.  Since then, those tires are no longer on the market so with
the change in appearance, the size was corrected.

The Road 20 is still the Road 20, same tire, different labeling and
appearance.  This is the tire I prefer for all around use, the one I
have always used.  I carry the folding version in the bottom of my bag
on tours and twice have had to use it, once after slashing a tire on a
rocky trail, and another from blowing a tire off the rim in a curve
(chewed up sidewall) from overheating while descending a trail.

Jobst Brandt  <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>  Palo Alto CA

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Avocet Carbon 12?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <i6Gs8.14826$44.93058@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 18:08:14 GMT

alex wetmore <alex@phred.org> writes:

> The old Duro really measures 27mm.  Does that mean that the new Duro
> also really measures 27mm as well, and is mislabeled, or that they
> no longer make a tire that is about 27-28mm wide?

I never measured one but it appears substantially larger than the Road
that I was convinced it was as large as claimed.  I ride with a friend
who uses them, both the smaller and larger one, and the tire clearance
impressed me as being and indication that these tires were as marked.

> I was really bored when I saw your response, so I took this picture:
> 

A convincing picture.  Thanks for the clarification.  I was assured
they were as marked, but I guess that was only implied when they said
they would change the size markings... on the Road, TT, and Criterium
models.

> You'll see that the calipers are reading just about 27mm and the
> tire is an pre-C12 advertising jargon Avocet Duro K20 mounted onto a
> Mavic MA2 rim.

Well done.

> So which model do I want to buy to get this tire?

All the tires are still the same, only some of the side designations
changed.  In the case of the Duro, the size markings were left as they
were unfortunately.  Maybe the next round will correct that.

My interest is that they don't mess with the Road model, the one I
use.  I'm not thrilled with black sidewalls because cord blemishes are
harder to see.  Fashion is a strange beast, black tires, black
goggles, and black truck windows are IN, as are baggy basketball pants
for men (but not for women).

Jobst Brandt  <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>  Palo Alto CA

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: What's Happening with Avocet Tires?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <rd0E8.7539$lX2.44700@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 04:17:27 GMT

> They're good tires.  If some marketing BS improves availability,
> then that's a good thing.  If it only drives up the price, then
> it's...

The major difference is that the casing of the Road model has been
made lighter by using finer casing cords, as is apparent from the cord
count of 127 threads per inch.  This and the more precise size
labeling is the main difference other than that the sidewalls are
black to emphasize that Avocet is the only manufacturer with a full
line of tires with carbon black tread.

Carbon is what car, motorcycle, aircraft and racing tires use (and not
colored shiny black either).

Jobst Brandt  <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>  Palo Alto CA

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: What's Happening with Avocet Tires?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <WriE8.7952$lX2.47260@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 01:01:42 GMT

August West <walstibnyc@hotmail.com> writes:

>>> They're good tires.  If some marketing BS improves availability,
>>> then that's a good thing.  If it only drives up the price, then
>>> it's...

>> The major difference is that the casing of the Road model has been
>> made lighter by using finer casing cords, as is apparent from the
>> cord count of 127 threads per inch.  This and the more precise size
>> labeling is the main difference other than that the sidewalls are
>> black to emphasize that Avocet is the only manufacturer with a full
>> line of tires with carbon black tread.

> Wait a minute.  How does a black sidewall emphasize that?  Every
> tire I see on the road--except the old Avocet's--has a black
> sidewall.  Isn't Avocet just doing what everyone else does?  It's
> not emphasis, it's conformity.

It makes the labelling stand out and shows that the "new" tires have
the appropriate size marking in contrast to earlier ones.  The choice
of black for current fashion.  Rubberized sidewalls, as MTB tires
have, would also be black but heavier and more expensive.

Jobst Brandt  <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>  Palo Alto CA

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Fast all-weather tyres
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech,uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.misc
Message-ID: <tAdP8.529$54.2646@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 04:29:13 GMT

Per D. Sørensen writes:

>> How about not buying colored tires or ones that are colored black
>> to simulate carbon black.

> What tires are colored black to simulate carbon?

Most tires that are available in colors are not carbon black even when
all black.  That covers nearly all tires that do not specifically
state they have carbon compound treads.

Jobst Brandt  <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>  Palo Alto CA

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Mavic MA-40 - Piece of Crap?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <lf9Gb.4775$XF6.103745@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 05:12:49 GMT

Richard Ney <rtn@pobox.com> writes:

>>>> ...A modern rim with anodizing presents the same failure.  The
>>>> difference is that manufacturers are cutting back on anodizing
>>>> thickness.

>>> Or perhaps, having learned that there is a problem, they are at
>>> last attempting to engineer for an acceptable result with
>>> anodizing?  This still begs the question of why to bother with
>>> anodization in this application at all, of course.

>> Currently black is beautiful, be that rims tires or SUV's (with
>> blackened windows).  You see even Avocet knuckled under and
>> blackened their great IRC made tires and claims to have has an
>> immediate jump in sales, although I doubt it.

> Did they also make the tread thinner?  I got only 1500 miles out of
> the last two rear (folding) Road tires.

I think there may have been a change in tread compound but I don't
know.  I am no longer involved in their developments as you can
imagine by the carbon 12 promotion.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Avocet tires
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <ES9Gb.4784$XF6.103863@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 05:54:44 GMT

Richard Ney writes:

>>>> Currently black is beautiful, be that rims tires or SUV's (with
>>>> blackened windows).  You see even Avocet knuckled under and
>>>> blackened their great IRC made tires and claims to have has an
>>>> immediate jump in sales, although I doubt it.

>>> Did they also make the tread thinner?  I got only 1500 miles out
>>> of the last two rear (folding) Road tires.

>> I think there may have been a change in tread compound but I don't
>> know.  I am no longer involved in their developments as you can
>> imagine by the carbon 12 promotion.

> So, do you still use Avocet tires?

I have a stash of yellow bare walled Road model tires.  These went
more than 2500 miles for my trip in the Alps this summer and
subsequent riding here in the local mountains.  They did not last as
long as the best ones I had that lasted close to 3000 miles but that's
good enough for me.

> I have a wire-bead 25mm Road on the rear now.  I'm interested to see
> if I get the same low mileage.  I care less about the marketing and
> more about the functionality.  They can call it Carbon 12 or
> whatever, but if the tires aren't lasting, I'll find something else.

I still think they are the best around but I would be happier with a
tire that wasn't black.  The black covers information that I want to
see, such as casing aging and side cord cuts.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org