Subject: BZ (Was: Re: Chemistry and Crime Essay, Please Help ME!!!!!
From: yshan@bnr.ca (Yogi Shan)
Date: Oct 21 1996
Newsgroups: sci.chem

"Uncle Al" <uncleal0@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

:Went to work for Post Office putting dextrin 
:adhesive on stamps.  Added quinuclidinyl 
:benzilate to the glue.  100,000 people killed, 
:400,000 driven insane.  Post Office forced to 
:issue self-adhesive (no-lick) stamps.


BZzzzzzt! [Pun intended]

Now, don't get me wrong.

I typically enjoy "Uncle Al's" posts.  In fact,
I search them out.  

I'll continue to.

That being said, however, I have noted his 
disturbing tendency to sensationalize, exaggerate, 
and hype -- not to mention his usually simplistic, 
superficial, and rather inane political ramblings.

What I've also noted is that whenever I happen to
know something about a subject he's hyping,
his facts and analytical skills seem to frequently
go gurgling straight down the intellectual toilet.

Glug...glug...gurgle...gurgle.

I could go on, but interesting posts being things
that should be encouraged, especially considering
the rather pallid shadow of what it used to be that
Usenet has become, I think I should stop here.

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BZ has has estimated I.V. LD50 of .5 - 3 mg/kg in 
humans.  That's around 40 - 225mg for the average
man.  Looking at the mult-species data, I'd say
the lower limit is conservative.

LD25 would be not much lower, say, 75%.

Orally -- which is the area of relevance -- 
would be far higher (possibly 3 - 8 times
higher, once again comparing with multi-species 
LD1 & LD50 data).

On a lark, I compared the mass delta between a 
[small] stamp with glue, and one without and got 
.2 grains = 13 mg.


Conclusion 
**********

[A drum roll, please...]:

You wouldn't be able to get even 10% of the amount
necessary to kill on the stamp, absent an allergic 
reaction.

And the above analysis doesn't even factor in things 
like:

1. people don't lick all the glue off
2. it wouldn't be 100% BZ (there'd be
   some glue in the .2 grains)
3. many people use water rather than their
   tongue
4. postal meters

Including other things like the probable
foul taste, and how much people write (and
in North America -- as Al might say -- whether 
they can write at all), I'd have to say that 
this is a gross exaggeration with numbers 
plugged in for [cheap] effect.


[Ref:  Rosenblatt et al. (1977), unpublished]



Yogi


**********************************************

   "[Y]ou give your disciples not truth,
    but only the semblance of truth; they
    will be hearers of many things and
    will have learned nothing; they will
    appear to be omniscient and will 
    generally know nothing; they will be 
    tiresome company, having the show of
    wisdom without the reality."

                     -- "Phaedrus"
                         Plato

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Subject: Re: BZ (Was: Re: Chemistry and Crime Essay, Please Help ME!!!!!
From: yshan@bnr.ca (Yogi Shan)
Date: Oct 22 1996
Newsgroups: sci.chem

"Uncle Al" <uncleal0@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

:The Official word is that the human LD50 of 
:BZ is 4 mcg/kg, or about 0.3 mg/70 kg human.

Re-checked and verified that your figure is off
by two to three orders of magnitude.  

Rosenblatt is a Fort Detrick document -- can't 
get more "Official Truth" than that.  Cross-checked 
with two other DoD docs. 

Your dosage figure is in line with the _minimum_ 
dose at which BZ's anticholinergic effects begin 
to manifest themselves.

:The hallucinogenic effects are probably more 
:important to the subject than its potent hypotensive 
:properties.

Now, don't start back-peddling on me, Al.  100,000
dead was the only issue I was addressing.

:You had better look at your references again, and 
:at the abbreviation for the weight.

Your turn.  ;^)

Of course, a simple "Uncle!" will do.   ;^)



B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz (Bruce Hamilton) wrote:

>I believe it's commonly called BZ = Benactyzine,

Also an anti-cholinergic, and also a benzilate
ester, but a different one:  beta-diethylaminoethyl
benzilate.

>From memory, it's actually been a street
>drug at various times.

I've never heard of BZ being available illictly.

Benactyzine made a brief appearance, along
with JB-series glycollate esters such as Ditran, 
during the "exploratory" years of the late '60s in 
California as DMZ and TWA.

[Refs.:  "Love Needs Care" Smith & Luce (1970)
         "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test", Wolfe
          (1981)                              ]

However like all such atropine-like compounds,
the effect is mainly of an unpleasant, deleriant 
nature:  mydriasis, dry mouth and hot, dry skin, 
and true hallucinations (unlike psychedelics, where
you realize that what you're seeing is a drug effect),
frequently coupled with amnesia.

The post-experience amnesia is probably a good
thing considering the frequently nightmarish 
nature of the hallucinations.

Most notable is the absence of the euphoria that 
makes indole-ring psychedelics pleasurable, and, 
indeed, eminently more marketable.

Anticholinergics are thus the proverbial "trip to
nowhere", and are generally of interest only
to those nitwits who equate the word "hallucination"
to something pleasurable.  A _bona fide_ example
of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

And further to Uncle Al's rather loose comments, the 
precursors to BZ are certainly available for < US$1k 
/kg, however 3-quinuclindinol is noted as a CW agent 
precursor under the Chemical Weapons Convention with
concommitant sale, export, and import controls.  

Good luck being able to actually _buy_ some, and start
polishing up on your "Leavenworth Lambada".

Of course, the CWC was recently voted down by the
U.S. Senate, in spite of chemical lobby support, but
this is one case in which suppliers are assuredly
proactive in reporting sales.

Now, you'd think Al could use the CWC as grist for 
his Cassandra mill, instead of his stock, alarmist 
natterings.

But -- alas -- no....


Yogi


*****************************************************

      "But a diseased habit of body, caused
       by drugs which Olympias gave him, had
       ruined not only his health, but his
       understanding."

                     -- "Parallel Lives"
                         Plutarch

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