From: "Steve Harris" <SBHarris123@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.med.veterinary,misc.kids.health,sci.med,sci.med.nursing,
	uk.people.health
Subject: Re: SIDS and shaken baby sundrome quote--the role of endotoxins
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 00:44:47 -0600

> "john" <whale@whaleto.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<9fm536$8h5$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> "The role of vaccines, particularly the whole-cell pertussis (whooping
> cough) vaccine can be understood when it is realised that this vaccine
> contains a variable and uncontrollable amount of endotoxin that is injected
> and absorbed, unaltered, into the blood. It does not even go first to the
> liver where attempts to detoxify it could be made...

Somebody's got to explain to Archie the Madman that vaccines aren't given
intravenously. There's plenty of "alteration" before much of a dose gets to
the blood.  If there wasn't, the stuff wouldn't work.

And they do work. We've known that since Pasteur publicly shot up the sheep
with live anthrax. That, for me, is the essence of science: public
demonstration in which you can lose, big-time, because your prediction is
wrong. But Pasteur was right.

From: "Steve Harris" <SBHarris123@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.med.veterinary,misc.kids.health,sci.med,sci.med.nursing,
	uk.people.health
Subject: Re: SIDS and shaken baby sundrome quote--the role of endotoxins
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 13:39:15 -0600

"john" <whale@whaleto.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9fq6co$pl6$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Alteration"--that sounds something to rely on.  Don't tell me some vaccines
> aren't shot straight into the blood.

Why shouldn't I tell you that? Vaccines shot straight into the blood don't
work well, if at all. You need the antigen processing that goes on in tissue
macrophages, and in the lympatic system.

>  I guess you think the muscle isn't
> connected to the blood supply.

Everything's connected to the blood supply in some way. Drugs you put in
your blood eventually wind up in your hair, for example. So what?

My problem is your use of the word "directly." And in your use of the word
"straight" above. Clearly, you haven't a clue.

From: "Steve Harris" <SBHarris123@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.med.veterinary,misc.kids.health,sci.med,sci.med.nursing,
	uk.people.health
Subject: Re: SIDS and shaken baby sundrome quote--the role of endotoxins
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 01:06:49 -0600

"john" <whale@whaleto.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9fria1$etv$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Steve Harris" <SBHarris123@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:9fr9ti$onb$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> >
> > My problem is your use of the word "directly." And in your use of the
> > word "straight" above. Clearly, you haven't a clue.
> >
>
> "Clearly, you haven't a clue"--is that what you say to protect yourself
> from knowledge that you have been caught talking complete and utter
> bullshit? It seems so.
> 
> You can dance around trying to confuse the jury with some obtuse
> definition of "directly", but try telling a kid that jabbing a hollow
> pin into a muscle full of blood vessels and the liquid you squirt down
> the middle is going to, now and then, hit a blood vessel "directly" and
> get as close to one in most cases as makes no damn difference.  If you
> pull back of needles you sometimes get blood to come back into the
> syringe.  If that isn't getting a blood vessel directly I am a banana.
>
> john


John, you miserable sod, you are indeed a banana.

Once upon a time, the reason they pulled back to see if they got blood was
so they DIDN'T inject vaccine directly into a vessel. The idea was to inject
only if they saw nothing.

Today we know that it doesn't matter. If you pull back before you inject
anything you rarely get frank blood from a muscle using a small gauge
needle. That which you do get (if any) is small and limited-- you can't just
keep drawing back as you could if you were in a vessel. Thus, it does not
signal that you needle is in a vessel, but rather than you've cut some
vessels and allowed time for blood to appear around the needle. It also
means you don't have a route INTO a vessel. The vessels in a muscle are so
small that if you inject dose of vaccine with a small gauge needle into a
muscle, you can't possibly give most of it into the vessel. That would be
like starting an IV into a muscle, which (I promise you) is impossible to
do, even if you wanted to do it.

From: "Steve Harris" <SBHarris123@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.med.veterinary,misc.kids.health,sci.med,sci.med.nursing,
	uk.people.health
Subject: Re: SIDS and shaken baby sundrome quote--the role of endotoxins
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 15:17:17 -0600

"john" <whale@whaleto.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9fsjv7$9io$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Steve baby, it demonstrates how close to the blood supply you are if you
> can get some blood into the syringe

"Close" may count in horseshoes and handgrenades. Here it's No Cigar.

From: "Steve Harris" <SBHarris123@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.med.veterinary,misc.kids.health,sci.med,sci.med.nursing,
	uk.people.health
Subject: Re: SIDS and shaken baby sundrome quote--the role of endotoxins
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 05:54:42 -0600

> Well, you would say that wouldn't you.  It ends up in the brain like an
> anaesthetic injection, for example, into the muscle--10 seconds out for
> the count.
>
> john


You've been watching too much TV. Ten seconds means you got an IV injection.
You've never been given anaesthetic in the muscle, except by mistake, or for
preop where you have half an hour for it to work. And it's a lipid soluble
molecule which does not get transported in tissues like the protein
aggregates in vaccines.

From: "Steve Harris" <SBHarris123@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.med.veterinary,misc.kids.health,sci.med,sci.med.nursing,
	uk.people.health
Subject: Re: SIDS and shaken baby sundrome quote--the role of endotoxins
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:45:41 -0600

"john" <whale@whaleto.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9fvtja$nrv$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
>
> How about Ketamine clever cloggs?    They carry that around in battlefield
> situations so I recall.  Don't tell me you rig up an IV with your leg
> hanging off.   I'll shoot some into your butt and see how long you carry on
> talking bull.

I've given a lot of Rompun/Ketalar (xylocine and ketamine) in veterinary
applications, and I can promise you that you have 15 minutes before you see
anything in an animal. Usually longer.  And again, these are soluble
molecules which get into the blood much faster than an injected protein
aggregate, which will simply stay in the tissue until it's broken down.